[15:49:01] timhunt: do you remember the bug number for your proposed collapsible sections of forms?
[15:49:17] Andrew Nicols: MDL-30637 IIRC
[15:49:17] moodlebot: http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-30637 Simplify moodle forms - Assignee: Ruslan Kabalin Type: New Feature Status: Open V:6 W:6 Priority: Minor 
[15:49:21] Andrew Nicols: score
[15:50:06] timhunt: Why remove Show advanced?
[15:50:12] timhunt: Isn't that also useful?
[15:50:31] Andrew Nicols: Ruslan's probably better to comment on that side of things
[15:50:36] Andrew Nicols: I think it should definately be removed when forms are collapsed
[15:51:04] timhunt: yes, but when you expand a section containing advanced, the button should be there.
[15:51:07] timhunt: Shouldn't it?
[15:51:21] Andrew Nicols: I'd argue not
[15:51:59] Andrew Nicols: I think that with collapsed forms it's enough to have the form collapsed without having an additional level of collapsing in the show/hide advanced button
[15:52:16] timhunt: Oh, I see, you want to kill it completely: MDL-30640
[15:52:16] moodlebot: http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-30640 Remove 'Advanced field' form functionality - Assignee: Ruslan Kabalin Type: Sub-task Status: Open V:1 W:4 Priority: Minor 
[15:52:56] Andrew Nicols: Without JS enabled, the show/hide advanced isn't nice to use anyway - I think that was the ratinonale
[15:53:06] timhunt: I still think it is useful. Particularly for the quiz, where the admin can choose what is considered advanced for this Moodle install.
[15:53:28] Andrew Nicols: Do you think it would be as useful with shortforms though?
[15:53:32] timhunt: Yes
[15:53:50] Dan the Third: in essence the rationale was because you effectively have two 'show advanced' features
[15:53:59] Dan the Third: conflicting and arguably confusing
[15:54:00] Andrew Nicols: And do you think it would be useful in places other than the quiz ;)
[15:54:27] timhunt: When OU staff expand the "Extra restrictions on attempts" in the quiz settings, we don't want the to see most of the choices there unless they really know what they are doing.
[15:54:57] timhunt: Setting them all as advanced currently solves that for us.
[15:55:30] timhunt: The non-General sections of the quiz form are not 'Advanced' features. Collapsing/expanding them is not like show advanced.
[15:56:18] Andrew Nicols: I can see what you're getting at, but for the bulk of Moodle, do you think it makes sense to have a collapsed form, which then has a 'Show Advanced' inside it for yet more options?
[15:56:38] Andrew Nicols: Or is it just quiz?
[15:56:44] timhunt: No, I agree that we should not have two different forms of collapsing.
[15:57:07] timhunt: But, I am wondering about three states for a form section: Collabapsed, expanded, and 'show more'
[15:57:14] timhunt: Show more would releval the advanced fields too.
[15:57:33] Dan the Third: yep
[15:58:03] Dan the Third: well we went for the easy option I think we went for the easy to implement option more than anything else
[15:58:26] Dan the Third: I think you'd want to audit all the setAdvanced fields though because many would probably be fine just collapsed
[15:59:05] Andrew Nicols: See MDL-30806 for the audit task
[15:59:05] moodlebot: http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-30806 Audit existing forms for inconsistent behaviour, missing required fields, field order - Assignee: moodle.com Type: Sub-task Status: Open V:0 W:1 Priority: Minor 
[15:59:15] Dan the Third: that and actually going through and adding more sections
[15:59:43] Dan the Third: e.g. apparently user profile address fields are 'advanced' rather than just collapsed in address section
[16:02:58] timhunt: Hmm. Looking at https://moodledev.luns.net.uk/a/course/modedit.php?update=8&return=0 (that is a quiz settings form) it is not bad
[16:03:18] timhunt: Edit profile form clearly sucks.
[16:03:23] timhunt: But is fixable
[16:04:54] timhunt: Glossary form also needs work. It is all in general.
[16:05:55] timhunt: Workshop form is too collapsed by default.
[16:06:01] timhunt: https://moodledev.luns.net.uk/a/course/modedit.php?add=workshop&type=&course=2&section=0&return=0
[16:06:36] timhunt: OK. I take it back, we can lose show_advanced.
[16:06:48] Andrew Nicols: :)
[16:07:02] Dan the Third: hmm I think the editor forms get smaller when in collapsed section
[16:07:22] timhunt: Probably what we need is an admin page for quiz access rules so that admins can disable the ones they don't like.
[16:08:32] timhunt: Question forms really suck, although Colin's changes should fix that.
[16:09:04] timhunt: Colin's implementation of this had the nice feature that if you collapse a section containing required fields, it adds a * at the end of the heading.
[16:09:23] timhunt: http://docs.moodle.org/dev/Question_editing_form_improvements#Required_Sections
[16:10:02] Dan the Third: the opening of required fields makes it work better 'out of the box'
[16:10:09] Dan the Third: without modifying all the forms
[16:10:09] timhunt: He also did that
[16:10:20] Dan the Third: oh ok
[16:10:29] Dan the Third: so it opened and added the *
[16:10:35] timhunt: I think only sections with required fields that were not filled in.
[16:11:05] timhunt: If the required field already had a value, the section was collapsed, but the heading was modified by the JS
[16:11:39] timhunt: https://github.com/timhunt/moodle/commit/59abc7a864b809d7643458b6cf7ed8cbbb35e336
[16:12:12] timhunt: https://github.com/timhunt/moodle/compare/master...qforms
[16:12:41] dan.marsden (dan.marsden@gmail.com) has left
[16:12:57] timhunt: Colin is on paternity leave now. I am trying to work out how to present his changes to the community to get some sensible feedback.
[16:13:23] dan.marsden (dan.marsden@gmail.com) has joined the group chat (I'm not here right now)
[16:16:11] Dan the Third: hmm remembering the open/closed state is interesting
[16:16:59] Andrew Nicols: personallyI like the idea of marking unrequired sections with modifications
[16:20:58] Ruslan Kabalin_: >Andrew Nicols: I think that with collapsed forms it's enough to have the form collapsed without having an additional level of collapsing in the show/hide advanced button
agree
[16:22:37] timhunt: The bit of Colin's work that I like best for the question editing forms is http://docs.moodle.org/dev/Question_editing_form_improvements#Expandable_html_editors
[16:23:09] Andrew Nicols: that's a nice feature
[16:24:20] timhunt: At the moment, I think it uses a white-list of editors to affect. I am wondering if a better option - such as a heruistic "make the editing tools optional for any HTML editor that is smaller than X"
[16:26:54] dan.marsden (dan.marsden@gmail.com) has left
[16:26:57] Dan the Third: does that remove the performance overhead for setting up the editor too?
[16:27:04] Dan the Third: as in the server side performance overhead..
[16:27:11] timhunt: Sadly not.
[16:27:24] timhunt: The full TinyMCE is there, we just display-none parts of it.
[16:28:03] timhunt: But, as long as you are using a real browser (not IE) it is not too bad, even for the most insane multi-choice question - which is the worst form I konw for HTML editors.
[16:28:06] Dan the Third: does it improve the client side at all, no?
[16:28:28] Dan the Third: as in client side performance, or is it just aesthetics 
[16:28:46] timhunt: It is just aesthetics, but on many of the qtype forms, that is a huge win.
[16:29:00] Dan the Third: yeah I agree, just interested
[16:29:20] dan.marsden (dan.marsden@gmail.com) has joined the group chat (I'm not here right now)
[16:30:32] Andrew Nicols: repo plugins need some work there still :\

[16:36:45] Ruslan Kabalin_: >[16:11:39] timhunt: Colin's implementation of this had the nice feature that if you collapse a section containing required fields, it adds a * at the end of the heading.
We keep the sections that have * elements expanded, but it is not a problem to implement Colin's idea